Rusty sills , scrap car?

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jimthack180
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Rusty sills , scrap car?

Postby jimthack180 » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:15 pm

I have a 1999 SE 3.0, low mileage and in lovely condition. I'be just been told the sills are shot and it will fail its MOT. The garage have quoted £1000 to repair it or have advised me to scrap the car. Has anyone experience of repairing sills reasonably cheaply? I plan to keep the car long term if possible, if we all just scrap them, how will they ever become classics?

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Montana5
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Re: Rusty sills , scrap car?

Postby Montana5 » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:26 am

Loads of threads on the subject, not all that far below this one. The link below gives another link within to Sills for sale on E-bay.
http://www.jec.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=198&t=8941

Doug.
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J44EAG
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Re: Rusty sills , scrap car?

Postby J44EAG » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:51 am

Rust is now an issue with these cars, the earliest of which will now be some sixteen years old.

Values of these early cars are now low. £1500 could perhaps find a replacement with a floor pan in reasonable shape.

You can certainly repair using the available sections listed above. If you put two new sils on, then you are likely to have a £1200 repair bill. It hardly seems worth the effort. Every dog has its day. I recall some 338,000 cars were produced so rarity of the model presently is probably not an issue.

Later cars are not that expensive on the second hand market. Later good condition preface lift cars start at around £2500 with the run out facelift cars being available from around £4000.

Mike
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Martec
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Re: Rusty sills , scrap car?

Postby Martec » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:15 pm

Looking at the sills on Doug's post they look like over sills.

Unfortunately cheap garages will fit these over the existing sills and rust and tack weld them on, a cheap and nasty job that will last 2 years if you are luck.

The sill structure is made up of 3 sections, inner centre and outer and from pictures I've put up on here you can see that all 3 corrode at the join of the three.

I made and fitted proper patches in the outer sill, welded to solid steel and now found where the water is getting in to rot it all out and sealed it then waxed it all, but ...............this car is a stayer.

If you want a cheap job you will get it! to have the job done properly then take it to a proper body shop or as others have said scrap it!

Brian
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.

1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated

jimthack180
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Re: Rusty sills , scrap car?

Postby jimthack180 » Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:39 am

Good news! I took the car to my local friendly body repair shop, who I know quite well and they had a good look at it and showed me the problem. All the rust is at the rear end of both sills, for about 12 - 15 inches along, :D :D :D the rest of the underside is perfectly sound. They say they can cut this out and form replacement panels, weld in and then wax inject, for around £600. I say right, go ahead please! In 10 years time, I intend to have one of the best and probably by that time rarest of the early S-Types, most of which will have been scrapped.

Martec
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Re: Rusty sills , scrap car?

Postby Martec » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:42 pm

Nice to hear someone else is going to look after an early car. As the body shop will probably have the rear wheel arch plastic splash panels out can I suggest you ask them to seal the seam between the outer panel and the wheel arch just above the rear of the sill, as this is where the water is getting in (no seal for the lower 6" or so).

See the rear wheel arch pictures on this post in 'Suspension' Re: Suspension Rebuild MY 2000.

Brian
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.

1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated

lordphi
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Re: Rusty sills , scrap car?

Postby lordphi » Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:19 pm

I have "saved" several cars by welding plates/panels to replace rotten sections. Ultimately they have all been a waste of time. Wherever there is rot to be found, the rest of the car will not be far behind. It has all been rusting at about the same rate. You just cannot see it yet.
If you remove and replace an area of (say) 2 to 3 times the visible rot you may avoid reoccurrence for a year or so, but do not be surprised when it reappears or the next (unrelated) section exposes itself. Also consider the difficulty and cost of matching any repainting.
Even collector's cars with expensive bare metal rebuilds do not fully address the rust at work on the inside of blind sections (although much can be reduced by various treatments).
I suggest considering the recommendation of others and seek a decent replacement vehicle.

Phil

jimthack180
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Re: Rusty sills , scrap car?

Postby jimthack180 » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:15 pm

Thanks for all the comments, but I have to say I'm dissapointed by the generally negative attitude. I grew up in a time when it was very common to see MK2s in a banger race, I have even seen several MK10s in the same situation. A good friend of mine had a MK2, 2.5 Daimler in the mid 70s, which he used as a general runabout and when it went wrong, he scrapped it. If you are reading this, you already know the value of these cars today. Surely, if everyone who ever had a rough Jag scrapped it, there wouldn't be ay classics today? Sooner or later, you have to bite the bullet and say, 'Right, I'll commit the money and keep this car on the road'. I'm in the fortunate position where I can afford to do it. I love my Jag and I intend to keep it running. After all, I could cut my losses and buy another Jag, but who's to say I won't be buying even more trouble!
As if to covince me, I've just returned from a holiday in Derbyshire, having coverd 987 miles, in great comfort & style, returning 31.6 MPG. What more can I say? I rest my case!

Martec
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Re: Rusty sills , scrap car?

Postby Martec » Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:21 pm

Hi Jim,

You are right in saying there is a negative attitude to preserving (note I didn't say 'SAVE') these lovely comfortable cars, and I added to this.

I have found on these forum pages that most people buy the newer cars for comfortable cheap transport until it gets expensive and the car is traded in for the newer and now cheap model, you can't fault the logic. Often questions are asked about faults with little detail of which year of car, engine or gearbox as a cheap fix is required, again the logic cannot be faulted.

The (to me) daft comments about the 'S' type going into 'Classic status' (a snobbish term with no meaning) is missing the point that sports cars are sort after from day one, but saloons go through 'Banger status' first and only a few that are cherished without the use of the term 'it has no value so I'll scrap it', will survive and most often only the STR variety.

Like you Jim I love my comfortable 'standard spec' car and have worked hard and spent more that its 'worth' but considerably less that the monthly payments on the next model.

I commend your attitude and I believe I now know of 3 pre-2002.25 cars that stand a chance of surviving, yours, mine and my friend Roger.

Best wishes

Brian
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.

1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated

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J44EAG
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Re: Rusty sills , scrap car?

Postby J44EAG » Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:09 pm

And mine! Don`t forget mine!!

I`ve spent a bomb on it recently. Well over £2000 on the suspension and loads more in the past.

But this early car now has to go due to ongoing health issues which will eventually stop me from getting down and under on my hands and knees to have to begin to replace metal sections. I shaln`t be able to do this type of low level work for much longer and inevitably the car will need steel replacement in due course. Hopefully a new owner will be able to take over where I leave off.

I`m glad to say my S-type is still in reasonable sound shape. Mechanically it has wanted for nothing. Its a heck of a good buy with several more years left in it before any further heavy maintenance will be needed.

Ten years on the slate for me now with an early S-type. Two on a V6 and the other eight on a V8. We have had great times together and that won`t be forgotten. Always admired by passers by, the S-type design is a pretty one and the early type is probably the most interesting visually. The last cars were rather sanitised externally and lack that front spoiler with the brake air vents and the elliptical rocket style rear lights. Just a couple of the things that first attracted me to the car when I first saw one. when I learned it was built on the old spitfire production line, I saw the link and just had to have one. I love all those Spitfire design cues. So for the next six months, I worked seven days a week and then bought one. I felt I had made it and there was the reward. Happy days.

Although now up for sale and with a 350R as the replacement, I still enjoy the S to the full. Its a reluctant sale but I can`t justify the running costs of two V8 Jaguars. I`ll do my best to see this car goes on to a good home. It deserves it. Its been a great experience.

Mike
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2004 XJR

oldtimer
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Re: Rusty sills , scrap car?

Postby oldtimer » Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:32 pm

Yes, and yours, will we ever forget it?

Even mine is getting a bit long in the tooth at 2003 - bit like me really - the car is winning I think.

I agree with Mike when he talks about the corrosion and failings of vehicles constructed from steel but there are as always exceptions to this. I was fortunate enough to buy a brand new car which lives in a heated garage. and has never seen ice or salt. Furthermore I have the benefit of a four post lift which enables me to have ease of access to the underside and attend to minute spots of corrosion with primer and paint.
From day one I have been able keep the dreaded tin worm at bay and to assist with this I have used copious amounts of wax oil. A fairly recent examination of the sills revealed paintwork as though it was straight from the factory.

Most cars are used as work horses and rightly so and never get the same attention as mine. I am sure mine is not the only one that has been cared for in this way so the hunt must be on for such a car when looking for that new/ used purchase.

Wax oiling the underside of the car has been a "hobby horse" of mine for a while now. When ever I get the opportunity I reiterate my thoughts on the subject. Failure to attend to this crucial aspect is the "kiss of death" for the vehicle exactly as Mike describes

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Re: Rusty sills , scrap car?

Postby Ladams » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:03 pm

For what it's worth, It depends how much you love the car! I have spent in the region of £8,000 on my 2003 S-Type 2.5 v6 sport in the last year. It's in fabulous condition now but probably worth circa £2,500 book value. If the sills needed doing then I would spend the £1,000+ having them replaced. Am I mad? Probably... but if a family member needed an expensive operation to survive it would happen. Yes you could scrap it an buy another, only perhaps to get one with different issues. For the money I have spent I could have bought a three year old Mondeo or Astra.... but I know which I would rather be driving.

340jag
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Re: Rusty sills , scrap car?

Postby 340jag » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:49 am

Gone are the days when you can just tack a over sill on , or a patch , the sill or patch have to be 100% welded !
The main disadvantage with the newer cars is the thickness of the metal , its a lot harder to weld thinner metal .
Old cars like the MK2 Jag , you can cut rust out a wing or floor and grind it , and weld in new metal , soon as a new car looks at a grinder it goes in to a hole !
I think most people are missing the point , the older the Jag its the real enthusiast that wants one , and they may not have a cheque book to keep it on the road , so for around £300 they can buy the tools to do the welding them selves

I remember when the Jaguar Enthusiasts club started up , from the Jaguar drivers club .

I am sorry to say the J.E.C has ended up like the J.D.C

You cant do this , you can't do that , that's not right , if you have to ask you can't afford it .

May be time for another Jaguar car club !!

Not one that the owners have cheque books , but one where the owners have and get dirty hands !!

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J44EAG
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Re: Rusty sills , scrap car?

Postby J44EAG » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:16 am

Maintenance of any Jag requires skill. Its a dieing game. With the newer cars, a whole new skill set, earlier model experiemce and ability and desire to get down and under combined with the physical energy and strength to work under a car is needed. Then you have to be able to stand up again after enduring the misery! Like many others, that ability for me is getting harder by the day....None of us perhaps as agile as we were twenty years ago! Eventually, I shall have to pay someone to do this work.

Clubs and societies go in phases.The JEC however does still have members who do the majority of the work themselves although many don`t shout about it. I don`t think the JEC is dead in the water at all. There is plenty of DIY work being done. Without precise facts and figures, sweeping statements on percentages of who is doing DIY and who puts their work out to the trade is impossible to quantify.

Mike K
X350 Co-ordinator

2004 XJR

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Popsjag
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Re: Rusty sills , scrap car?

Postby Popsjag » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:32 pm

Quite right Mike,

Mine's a big learning curve and I've had to weld both outer sills. Passed it's MOT last week but gearbox still not right.

Old gearbox is now out (fluid in torque converter full of s**t!). Replacement second-hand one now sitting underneath, ready to lift back up - that will be fun as it's not exactly light!!

Oh the joys of DIY!!!

Steve.
2003 X350 XJR - daily driver
--------------------------------
Past vehicles:
1996 3.2 XJ6; 2004 2.7D Sport; 1996 4.0 LWB Sovereign;
1994 2.9 XJ40; 1978 5.3 Series 2 LWB


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