83 V12 Steering issue

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J44EAG
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83 V12 Steering issue

Postby J44EAG » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:56 am

Guys,

I`ve recently bought a V12 XJS and a problem came up at the MOT.

The near side tyre apparently touches the car body on extreme lock. I`ve yet to get out there and see for myself. Yes, I can feel the issue when turning the car tightly at parking speeds.

The car is fitted with 225/60/15 on Starfish alloys. These are +20mm wider than the standard factory fit of the manufacturing period.

The car has had a recent rack fitted.

This link describes the reverse of the effect that I am experiencing. Perhaps I need thicker travel stops fitted.

http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfa ... radius.htm

I gather standard size fit tyres are NLA.

Any options and advice much appreciated.

Mike K
X350 Co-ordinator

2004 XJR

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piman
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Re: 83 V12 Steering issue

Postby piman » Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:01 am

Hello Mike,

the first thing I would check is if the rack is centralised, i.e. if the wheels are straight ahead when the rack is turned to mid position. You say a new rack was fitted and it's possible that it is not installed correctly. (The same thing occurs if the tracking is not adjusted equally on both sides. I'm not familiar with the XJS, does it have any full lock stops?

Alec
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Re: 83 V12 Steering issue

Postby oldtimer » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:15 pm

Hi Mike,
What I can tell you is that the older XJ and XJS have a grease nipple into a rack adjusting pad secured with a large locking nut. This is immeadiately beneath the rack tower. Removal of the nipple allows the insertion of centralising tool, Jaguar special tool part No 12297, or in black hand gang speak a 3/16 drill. At least you will know the rack is centralised. This of course may put the steering wheel out of the straight ahead position,removal of four screws allows the horn pad to be taken off and then the steering wheel can be re-aligned.

I've been sat pondering as to if or where there are any limit stops and I can't think of any, I've also just looked in the XJS Parts manual, realy can't see in detail to comment. There are a couple of what looks like tab washers but not stops. I do have a new rack in the workshop (still waiting to be fitted) that I can turn the boot back and look if the need arises.

Mike I have four 16inch lattice rims that came back under Warranty from an XJS and I'm sure they take 225 tyres so would imagine the there is enough space

Final thought we know that both the Land Rover and XJS used Starfish style rims are they in fact the same size in respect to inset /out set I wonder.

Hope that helps a bit
Oldtimer

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Re: 83 V12 Steering issue

Postby J44EAG » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:51 pm

Thanks for that, Guys.

Hamstrung by rain at present so haven`t been able to investigate yet. Also decent new jack will not arrive until Tuesday. As the car will be going to Jagcare on Wednesday, i`m unlikely to get much done before then.

However your info is greatly appreciated. Gives me the chance to discuss "on the same level" with John and Simon when the car goes over there.

There is also an issue with the below par N/S handbrake mechanism. Either the caliper or the cable. Any pointers on that would also be appreciated.

Cheers chaps.

Mike
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Re: 83 V12 Steering issue

Postby oldtimer » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:09 pm

Are the rear brakes inboard or outboard, inboard I can help with , outboard don't have a clue

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Re: 83 V12 Steering issue

Postby J44EAG » Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:18 pm

Inboard, Phil.

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Re: 83 V12 Steering issue

Postby oldtimer » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:21 pm

Mike
The handbrake on these cars have a bad reputation but I don't know why. Not my experience.

The two rear calipers mount directly onto each side of the Diff. Each caliper carries a handbrake unit. The operation of the rear caliper and hand brake are completly independant, absolutely no inter-dependency what so ever. However two hand brake levers passing either side of the disc use the caliper casing for the hinge of each lever. A "U" section brass looking spring plate is used to pull the pads and levers back after use of the handbrake Each lever carries a hand brake , brake pad (two sizes of pad) The two levers are coupled together at the opposite end to the hinge pin with a threaded bolt, the head of the bolt is round with a screw driver slot in it. A split pin passes through the lever and locates into the screw driver slot to prevent the bolt from rotating. The other end of the bolt engages with a nut in the other lever. This nut has horizontal slots formed like a buttress thread into which a spring loaded latch engages. Repeated operation of the hand brake slowly rotates the nut caused by the sprung latch taking up pad wear. The two pad carrying levers of each handbrake unit are actuated by a third hinged lever. The third lever of each unit is/ are drawn together by a single cable. The outer casing of the operating cable engages with one lever and the operating cable connects to the other lever.Two long springs are attached to the fulcrum points of the operating cable as return assistance.

Working on these units whilst in place is almost impossible. I have heard it said that people have cut a hole in the floor for access. I may be dreaming but I have a feeling the XJS could have a proper access panel in the boot.

Getting a bit late now Mike I'll have a go at a couple of cheap fixs tomorrow
Phil

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Re: 83 V12 Steering issue

Postby J44EAG » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:40 pm

Thanks, old pal.

Mike
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Re: 83 V12 Steering issue

Postby poprivet » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:34 am

Hi Mike,
The tyre problem could be simply having the wrong size, hopefully the front subframe and mounts are in good condition.

Handbrake problems are usually down to either pads being burned due to drivers not knowing how the fly-off handle operates or oil contamination due to diff output seal leakage. Without a four post lift, its easier to drop the whole rear cage to work on them and set it all up properly.

It would be prudent to have the car up on a lift to check all the usual corrosion and wear points before spending too much money and evaluate a plan as to whether its a long term keeper or not.

Brilliant cars when maintained and set up well, but they do demand a lot of mechanical attention.
1988 3.6 XJ-S coupe
'Remember that the value of your investment can plummet as well as fall'

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Re: 83 V12 Steering issue

Postby J44EAG » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:59 am

Given the use of a four post lift, Al, what sort of time scale for repair would we be looking at? I know each case is different but a ball park idea would be useful.

As regards the future of this car, it is becoming border line. MOT fail on the handbrake and an issue with front tyre clearance. The new track rod end is mere piffle and easily sorted.

This car may have reached the end of the line for me. I don`t want the car as a keeper and don`t have the desire to pay huge garage bills on an old car that has a limited value and interest for me. This car for me is on Death Row, unless I can get the issues fixed for small money.

Anyone want this car for resto, spares of repair? Give me a few hundred quid and its yours. Drive away condition whilst MOT is current to 14th March 2013. PM, mail or call me to discuss.

Mike
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poprivet
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Re: 83 V12 Steering issue

Postby poprivet » Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:45 pm

Laying on the floor with a torch, you should be able to see the discs quite well, if they are oily its likely to need fairly major surgery. If dry and rusty its better news.

Pads and springs should be cheap enough but its a time consuming job as the handbrake calipers are attached to the main brake calipers at the very top of the axle cage, so even with a lift, you're working blind. Things can esculate badly of course, leaking/siezed main calipers, broken bolts, worn discs, perished brake hose, radius arm bushes etc. etc.

A 'simple' handbrake clean-up and new pads should only take a few hours if all goes well.
1988 3.6 XJ-S coupe
'Remember that the value of your investment can plummet as well as fall'

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Re: 83 V12 Steering issue

Postby PaulGover » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:16 pm

There are a couple of other causes of handbrake issues:

First, it's common for the pads to come away from their metal backing - I think as a result of the ease of driving away with the handbrake still on.

Second, when replacing the pads, e.g. after the above, getting the tangs of the phosphor bronze return spring thingy (a sort of U shape about 4cm on a side) into the teeny holes in the pad carriers is a right pain, even if you can see what you're doing. And when trying to do it without dropping the rear axle, it's surprisingly easy to get only one side engaged properly. The result of that is applying the handbrake twists the mechanism so one pad carries all the braking force, and therefore wears away rapidly while the other pad doesn't make contact.

It's much, much easier to overhaul the handbrake if you can drop the rear axle, and that's not as hard as it sounds, provided you have appropriate means of getting it back again!

As to wheels rubbing on the bodywork, I'm not sure I understand what's going on here. Original fit are 235/60-15 on 6.5Jx15 wheels. These tyres are often hard to find - as far as I know, the only performance car using this size is the XJS (it's more common on 4x4s and SUVs, but they use non-performance tread patterns and speed ratings). As a result, you have to wait for Pirelli to decide it's worth manufacturing another batch. If the car is actually fitted with 225/60-15, they should actually be a 1cm narrower than normal, and you shouldn't foul the bodywork.

The optional size is 225/55-16 on 7Jx16 wheels. This is a more common size, and it's easier to get tyres, but you need the larger wheels of course. Also, as the wheels are half an inch wider, they would foul the wishbones, but not the bodywork. Jaguar worked around this by tack-welding spacer washers about 0.1" thick to the tab washers locking the ball joints to the end of the steering rack, as discussed in previous posts. (SNG Barratt's XJS parts list gives the part number JLM1458 for the spacers.) My 1991 facelift had 15" wheels but a rack with the spacers, and the resulting turning circle was ridiculously large. I chiselled the spacers off and everything was fine. Then I got 16" wheels, so now the tyres rub on the wishbones at full lock, but it's been MOT'ed three times since with no problem.

If you're fouling the bodywork, I'd suspect something's collapsed in the suspension. Typical problem areas are the rubber wishbone bushes. Upper ones are dead easy to replace. Lower ones require driving out the long, large pivot pin, which is usually seized solid. Another cause of funny geometry is rust in the front subframe, that large sheet metal fabrication carrying the upper shock absorber mounts, inner wishbone pivots, and supporting the engine. If you feel round behind the uprights you should feel smooth metal; on mine, there was just a large rusty hole. If you've got that, a new subframe will set you back something like £900. Mine passed its MOT despite the hole, 'cos MOT testers don't know all the places to look.

Where actually is the rubbing occurring?
1981 XJ6 Series III basket case
1991 XJS V12 "facelift"
2008 XJ TDVi

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poprivet
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Re: 83 V12 Steering issue

Postby poprivet » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:27 pm

Original fit are 235/60-15 on 6.5Jx15 wheels.

The 235 tyres appeared around 1987. I think an '83 like this one would have originally had 215/70x15 Dunlop D7 or Pirelli P5, according to the book I have.
1988 3.6 XJ-S coupe
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Re: 83 V12 Steering issue

Postby Brakebuster » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:46 pm

there is a steering lock restrictor that was fitted to TWR cars with special alloys and possibly the faster rack

dont know what the part number is, but it is listed as required in the TWR brochure if certain wheels etc are fitted




or get out the big hammer

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Re: 83 V12 Steering issue

Postby J44EAG » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:14 pm

Again, thank you to you all.

Tomorrow with luck, assuming there is a jack in the car, I`ll change the offending track rod end.Still awaiting my new light weight trolley jack to be delivered. Lumping my old steel jack around is no longer possible. I`d be in bed for a week if I tried it!

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11401.m5 ... AGB%3A1123

Had a long phone conversation with our old pal, Al (aka Pop Rivet) this evening. Excellent advice as always Al. Decided to do the track rod end and investigate the near side front wheel fouling. The car will then go to John and Simon at Jagcare on Wednesday and we will see what can be done for the brakes.

As these rear brakes are so difficult to access, is it feasible to cut an access panel through the boot/floor pan to gain access? Metal could always be stitched back in after remedials have been done?. Any comments on that idea?

Mike
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2004 XJR


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