Electronic Ignition

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Aceman

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Electronic Ignition

Postby Aceman » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:56 pm

Hi Everyone!
I have a 1967 Daimler 420 Sovereign. I would like to fit the type of electronic ignition that is concealed within the distributor cap. Has anyone any recommendation for a particular type or hints as to what to look out for in fitting such a set-up?
Many thanks in anticipation!
Cars: 1967 Daimler 420 Sovereign.
1995 AC Brooklands Ace.

stiky
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Re: Electronic Ignition

Postby stiky » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:29 pm

Hi i have the 123 system fitted to my 67 s type and it is really clever it has the advance curve to suit your engine and it also has the cacuum advance as well led inside the distributor for perfect timing.
cheers stiky

Martec
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Re: Electronic Ignition

Postby Martec » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:05 pm

Hi,

Before I started rebuilding my MkII I had experimented with electronic ignition and found that it is good in parts. I had a worn out DMBZ6.... distributor, not a good one to start with, also you are stuck with burning points and springs for the mechanical advance. I bought and fitted new distributor 45D 6 with springs set to my car and a 'petronus' electronic pickup. Great except the supplier cocked up the position of pickup and I had to reposition it. It is still in the car and is my back up ignition system, the good news is the settings never go off, the problem with this set up is that as the points are missing there is no rattle and vibration to allow the springs to control the advance properly.

I am running a coil pack and ECU as it has switchable maps for petrol and LPG. and the vacuum sampling point is in the inlet manifold itself (nearest thing to a true reading)

Another point is that the normal vacuum sampling point is at the throttle butterfly (rubbish readings). I would agree with 'Sticky' that the 123 distributor is the best option as it doesn't rely on springs and points so is a basic ECU in a distributor with preset maps.

Best wishes

Brian
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.

1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated

lowebird
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Location: Norfolk

Re: Electronic Ignition

Postby lowebird » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:50 pm

My Suffolk was originally fitted with a 123 dizzy but it caused problems like poor starting/running so it was replaced with an HH which has been great and also looks the part as it has a black top.
Reg

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piman

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Re: Electronic Ignition

Postby piman » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:09 pm

Hello Brian,

the distributor vacuum point is designed to give vacuum where the distributor needs it and so is not a true engine vacuum reading.

As a personal view I don't like these anachronistic electronic ignition systems, particularly as to get an equivalent to a sound mechanical ignition, i.e. a fully restored and calibrated distributor is expensive and requires extra sensors etc which just doesn't look right on an old car. Just my personal view.

Alec
Mk 2 3.8 (long term restoration), MK1 Triumph 2.5 P.I.,2.5 X Type Estate, 564 Hymer Motorhome

Martec
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Re: Electronic Ignition

Postby Martec » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:58 pm

Hi Alec,

When I first put the MkII back on the road I had repaired the old dizzy DMB6..... and the car ran poorly, and the throttle had to be gently pushed down. Via Watjag I paid £200 (in 2001) for a specially built 25D dizzy (vacuum signal from top of the carburettor) and it was brilliant, from 500 revs in top gear I could stamp on the throttle and the car took off........but not long afterwards it wouldn't reach 50mph due to the electronic pickup being wrongly positioned and cross firing.

I cut a hole in the dizzy cap and reset the pickup and it was excellent and is still my back up ignition system.

When I bought another Canems ECU to use specific maps for petrol and Gas the vacuum pickup on the carb was not good enough (not progressive enough and I drilled a hole in the centre of the manifold and that is now the sampling point for the MAP sensor to feed the ECU. Each system does what it should do, horses for courses really, I suppose I shouldn't rubbish the original set up as the dizzy is happy with it, but caused problems with ignition for the LPG.

Brian
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.

1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated

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piman

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Re: Electronic Ignition

Postby piman » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:04 am

Hello Brian,

I had forgotten about your LPG conversion.

Basically, what is the difference in timing between petrol and LPG?

Alec
Mk 2 3.8 (long term restoration), MK1 Triumph 2.5 P.I.,2.5 X Type Estate, 564 Hymer Motorhome

Martec
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Location: North Lincs

Re: Electronic Ignition

Postby Martec » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:17 pm

Hi Alec,

There is a sizable difference between the two maps, when I ran on the 'expensive' dizzy I could only start on LPG when it was warm, but with its own dedicated map it starts all the time on LPG regardless of temperature, so every 3 months I have to run on petrol to burn it off and put 3/8 of a tank full of fresh in.

To set up the ignition maps you really need to use a rolling road to get the ideal, but most tuning shops are only interested in high performance, not cruising. So we guessed it, with the car jacked up and my wife holding it a various revs I used a strobe light to read off the advance from the distributor and then went back to first principles to very the map for loadings at different speeds.

For the LPG settings I had gone to see Ken Jenkins for some front road springs and he gave me a range of settings he worked out in his head, he was impressed with the ECU and laptop settings. It worked perfectly, I got an old scrap inlet manifold from him to test drill for the vacuum pick up. Its all been hand to mouth and first principles setting up even to giving up with new universal (read cr*p) lambda probes and fitting second hand escort probes, tests showed it liked the NGK ones better (no back fires) than the Bosch ones!!!

It has taken a long time and effort to get this far and I just hope I can stop others falling into the same traps I did, and save money.

Brian
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.

1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated

p-B
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Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:44 am

Re: Electronic Ignition

Postby p-B » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:39 pm

Brian / Gents - hello, I'm new to this forum and to Jaguar ownership so please bare with me.

Interesting post and credit to you as remapping the ignition is over my head..

This week I became the proud new parent to an S-type 3.8 (1966 model). I want to convert her to run on LPG. Ken Jenkins has recommended Mugglestone, Lincs. to do the conversion. I believe that he also uses them. I've spoken to them (Neil & Josh) on the phone and a couple of things concern me (aside from the price)... the first is that they simply advance the ignition timing to suit the LPG, and then they say it will also run fine on petrol like that. My Jag still uses points

I'm certainly not as clever as a lot of you chaps, but to neither my experience as a Design Engineer (marine) nor as a classic motorcycle restorer does this sound right..

A few years ago I had a 1980 Scimitar SE6A (Essex engine) with LPG, ...and that had electronic ignition and a device which automatically altered the ignition timing when switching from one fuel to the other. Advancing it a few degrees to run on LPG it think.?

The other point is in connection with being a single point system. I've recently read that although the principle is the same as a single point the Jaguar should have an injector flange for each carburettor.., ie. two. (I haven't specifically asked Neil about whether they use one or two).

Might I ask what you think ? If you'd prefer to comment in private then please do PM me or feel free to phone : 01473 785 070.. I really would appreciate your advice.

Thank you,

Peter

Martec
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Location: North Lincs

Re: Electronic Ignition

Postby Martec » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:13 pm

Hi.

Mugglestone is well respected within the LPG community and knows his Jaguars.

As you are aware the biggest disadvantage to using gas is the size of the tank and the space it robs you of, particularly in the MkII, but with the bigger boot of the S type, less of a disadvantage.

The gas inlet is a thick plate bolted to the front of each carb and I can't think that the fitting offered to you would be any different.

I have heard of devices that advance the ignition, but comments on the LPG forum don't seem complimentary. I can't comment on the advancing of the standard dizzy other than the intensive comments on hear about the effects of unleaded fuel anyway.

You don't say if the single point system is lambda controlled (advisable), also I have found that Iridium plugs rather than expensive LPG plugs make life a lot easier (standard plugs only lasted me 1800 miles, but I'm sure that had a lot to do with the lambda probe and the ignition advance).

The cost of a fitted system is high and return depends on the milage covered, but for me the cost is 18mpg on petrol or effective cost of 30 mpg on gas on long runs.

If you are hands on then you can buy a kit from a REPUTABLE supplier and fit it yourself and find a good LPG fitter to commision it. Be aware there are still cowboys in this industry and on the LPG forum there are a number of installers who have a very good name (mugglestone being one of them). Where about are you located?

Brian
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.

1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated


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